Curse

Kaycee · Oct 04, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Sometimes splitting against a team makes things worse.
Sure the spike loses some damage but it also weakens your defense, since most times when splitting teams send 1 monk on the "offensive" and send their other monk onto defense.

In our spike when teams send people to split, we send our BiP necro , boon prot and flagger back, which usually can hold most split teams off. While 4 offensive characters and the BL push foward. It's easy to pressure 1 monk out with 4 offensive characters while the "defense" team stalls the base. and our Offensive team just pushes in and its gg.

still.mojo · Oct 04, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Spikes...bloodspike is easiest to deal with.
Annoying is---Obs spike, u have total of 2 choices, run heavy preassure build (that doesnt mean all condition copy paste builds), that will put their ass in tight spot and kill them, or runaround till wod and then die, fighting in 300 wards etc.That i consider a truly pathetic way of farming ladder.
Ill quote i rift pearson after loss of playoffs "It's not fair, u used mantra of lightning since u knew our build".
Who saw that, know whats it all about.
Who plays gvg for titles and rank purely, wont mind any means to get there, so theres no point in arguing how gimmick those builds are.Other even weaker will just copy paste, just to feel taste of blood of probably better guilds they wouldnt be able to approach othervise.
As JR said, theres more than one guild that broke after some nerf or spanking in playoffs.
Caster spikes are more and more popular since updates, but ways to deal with them are allready made.No build made is uncounterable, when my guild looses to some build like that, i know whos to blame<<<<<<<
I can add 1 thing to all this, err7 spikes and more freq lags in gvg dont help much too, sometimes gameplay isnt enough, especially when u play vs caster spikes based in Japan, and were Europe.Even crapiest spikes can go threw because monks are just casting ps of what, 2 seconds.
I just hope we wont spend month or 2 lagging each season because anet is preping for next sequal.

XxUberMonkeyxX · Oct 04, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

i agree with all of you guys, although i disagree with the splitting... my guild has a very effective 6 - 2 split where we have 6 necros on the offensive and 2 emos for the defence... not to brag about our win over [cow] but there are some guilds out there that know how to play even if we do use a gimmick build and yes i know that bspike will not last forever which is why [TARD] is gonna start practicing a balanced build when the ladder locks up. on you guys' part great info i definately learned from what you guys said and will consider telling the rest of my guild, [TARD] all im saying is that people really shouldnt rant at us simply for playing what we play best with and again not to brag about this win over [cow] but looking at you said wouldnt you say that we out-played them?? because for practically the whole match they had us pinned down at our base until vod... just a thought

Il Dark Templar Il

Thom Bangalter · Oct 04, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxUberMonkeyxX

i agree with all of you guys, although i disagree with the splitting... my guild has a very effective 6 - 2 split where we have 6 necros on the offensive and 2 emos for the defence... not to brag about our win over [cow] but there are some guilds out there that know how to play even if we do use a gimmick build and yes i know that bspike will not last forever which is why [TARD] is gonna start practicing a balanced build when the ladder locks up. on you guys' part great info i definately learned from what you guys said and will consider telling the rest of my guild, [TARD] all im saying is that people really shouldnt rant at us simply for playing what we play best with and again not to brag about this win over [cow] but looking at you said wouldnt you say that we out-played them?? because for practically the whole match they had us pinned down at our base until vod... just a thought

Il Dark Templar Il

beat cow by outplaying them, not bringing a gimmick build that they didn't have counters for, and then you have something going for you.

Patrograd · Oct 04, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

i have never seen a ranger, blood, or obs flame spike split successfully.

As squidget says, any pure spike team should be able to handle split builds very easily, assuming they know what they are doing. They only need to send a couple back to base, while the rest repair the cata and push on in and win the game. The days when spike teams counter split and ran around the map are over at any reasonable level of play. Ranger spike with its massive mobility (they usually run dual charge and multiple dodge) and utility (martyr) and inherent defence (whirling, sheilds up, bonds and watch yourself) is especially dangerous in this regard imo. Flame spike with resolve and stability is also difficult to counter if they play it aggressively enough (which few if any of them do luckily enough)

still.mojo · Oct 04, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Ranger and nec spike can be beaten by keeping them in konstant fight, and by making kills ofc, not only dying.Once their energy pool drains, its game over for them.During that preview weekend we met even that new moded rspikes in gvg, with paragon skills implemented, i cant say they were much of problem when we confronted them straight on.Few ppl died, but we made them die more and run back.Only thing u gotta watch in those moments is how far to chase:P
That can be double sided blade.
Obs spike doesnt have such probs tho, and i dont see other way of beating them xcept some serious aoe dmg that will preassure them out of wards, or maybe split that is done in great coordination with main body team.
Anyways, if respect is what u seek in gvg, such builds certainly wont help.That stench doesnt wear off easily.Its like high tomb ranked iway, bspike etc players.U have some fun, u kill ppl etc, and at end of day you are at beginning, still a pretty noobish player, with only small insight in game we all try to play.
There is ofc matter of flame u adressed.I can understand why ppl feel that way, but trashtalking doesnt help, and makes loosing side look even worse.

clonmac · Oct 04, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

We don't run a spike (and it has been a very long time since we've ever run a pure spike in GvG). So I just wanted to say that first. But, I don't get upset if we ever lose to a spike build in GvG. They are a part of the game and a completely legitimate strategy to win. Does it take less skill or tactic that a balanced build? Some yes, some no.

But in a lot of games that involve strategy, spiking your damage on a target is common and in GW it is no different.

We've run into some pretty poor teams attempting to run a spike build and it is extremely easy to send confusion running through their team if you split. However, attempt to split against a decent spike team and you can really tell the difference between skill levels in how they react. So I don't think it is completely right that higher rank spike groups who run spike don't deserve their rank. Many of them can just as easily switch over to running a balanced build and play just as well.

I think this really comes into play during tournaments. Without spike builds, things would be boring. Trying to play the metagame and figuring out what your opponent might run in the next match and wondering what counters to bring is part of the game. Spikes, for me, throw a welcome wrench in the game.

Flowah · Oct 04, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

I think this is more players who don't know how to split. Some spike builds are actually pretty effective on the split. Ranger Spike can take all the spikers, the orders/bonder, and a monk while the ele and another monk defend the lord.

Some guild know how to split, some don't.

Don't say it's the build winning. There's a reason when 2 ranger spikes fight each other, one wins and the other doesn't, someone got outplayed. Spikers use all 8 skills on their bar too, it's not just 3-2-1 press 2 skills. I've played balanced as a mesmer, thumper, necro, ele, monk. It's really no different. You have a job to do, and you do it. You use the skills when you're supposed to. What's the difference? I think warrior adren spikes are gimmicky. I mean holy crap, the hammer and evis/exec does soooooo much damage, and sometimes the mesmer even eburns or shatters your prot spirit! SPIKING IS FOR NOOOOBS.

Quote:

beat cow by outplaying them, not bringing a gimmick build that they didn't have counters for

Oh teh noes, I didn't bring a counter against a certain build, that means their win wasn't legitimate, or that it's worth less somehow! Anet should just tell me what guild I'm fighting and tell me their exact build so I can run counters to it, that way, it'll be TOTALLY fair.

I can't believe how stupid some of you "top ranked" GvG "balanced" players are.

Oh, and it's really boring to fight the same balanced team like 10x a night. 2 Warriors, 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 ranger, 2 monks. Maybe they'll switch out a mesmer for a poison/crip ranger and a melandrus ranger. Maybe the runner will be a me/a instead of an e/mo. Or screw one of the rangers or mesmers for a smiter. Fact is, there's VERY little variation in most "balanced" builds. Occasionally you'll see NR/Tranq (though I haven't seen one in quite some time), but most of the builds are 90% like each other. I'm going to list off some skills and you can tell me if 90% of balanced runs them or not.

blessed light signet of devotion reversal of fortune gift of health prot spirit inspired hex divine boon eviserate executioners bullstrike sprint healing signet frenzy devastating hammer crushing blow fierce blow ressig shields up blinding flash ether prodigy heal party extinguish lightning orb lightning strike esurge eburn shatter enchant diversion blackout distortion ressurection chant apply poison cripshot debilshot dshot savage shot shock

The mere fact that I can tab through the players, see their classes and guess 7/8 skills on their bar shows how little diversity there IS in GvG. The fact that you can give a name to any build you see in GvG. Hex Spam, Nr/tranq, smite, rspike, obsspike, bspike, domspike, fastcast air, shows you that there's nothing to brag about in terms of GvG creativity. Oh suuure, shadow of haste got a huge buff and now some guilds run that on their flagger, omg, so original, change the meta, blah blah blah.

Ever notice people don't ever make up individual builds? They just say, "alright, lets run a hammer war, a shock war, a dom mes, blight, boon, e/mo air flagger, gank assassin" etc. That's because there's no actual skill difference in these sets, 99% of the time, they run the exact same 8 skills. You think you're being original by subbing out a mesmer for a degen ranger? Well fine, you're an original little child.

C'mon, don't kid yourselves.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

We've run into some pretty poor teams attempting to run a spike build and it is extremely easy to send confusion running through their team if you split. However, attempt to split against a decent spike team and you can really tell the difference between skill levels in how they react. So I don't think it is completely right that higher rank spike groups who run spike don't deserve their rank. Many of them can just as easily switch over to running a balanced build and play just as well.

Let me put it this way - I've played teams below 500 on the ladder who can split in the same way a spike team does. Almost every spike build has exactly one split that they do whenever anyone sends stuff back to their base - they send back a couple defensive characters, then go win the game by counting down from 3.

Certainly there are good teams that run spike sometimes, but most of the teams that consistently play spike on the ladder can't run anything else. Es was below rank 300 (I think) the first time we faced them when they weren't on spike. I've never seen Deer play anything other than their one ranger spike, but I'm sure they would be pretty bad at it too.

Ultimately, which teams 'deserve' high rank is decided by which teams are able to achieve rank. However, don't kid yourself. Almost every team that runs exclusively spike is completely reliant on getting kills through countdown, and if they try to do anything else they quickly realize they suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clonmac

I think this really comes into play during tournaments. Without spike builds, things would be boring. Trying to play the metagame and figuring out what your opponent might run in the next match and wondering what counters to bring is part of the game. Spikes, for me, throw a welcome wrench in the game.

I guess it comes down to your playstyle. Personally, I'm coming out of FPS games and I like going into every match with the knowledge that I have a reasonable chance to win. If you don't happen to be on a build with a lot of disruption, you're at a massive disadvantage against a spike team and nothing you do as players can change that. You not only have to outplay them, but play so much better than them that you can overcome their massive build advantage.

I can think of a lot of matches this season where we were outplayed. I go over those matches in my mind and try to think what we could have done better. Spike isn't about playing better, it's more about packing a specific counter into your build. If "We lost because we didn't have specific counter X" is a valid excuse then there is a problem with game balance, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

I think warrior adren spikes are gimmicky.

With good players, adren spikes happen without ever having to call. You just know how to coordinate an offense to drop key targets.

There is a certain kind of adren spike build that I do consider kind of gimmicky. It's the sort where a build is packed to the eyes with defense (dual eles at the stand with wards, chained Aegis, Expel Hexes, blah blah blah) applies no pressure at all, and relies on getting kills exclusively through spiking you out with warriors. The warrior(s) serve as a teleporting Deep Wound using Death's Charge and most of the spike damage comes from Shatters and Orbs. A lot of builds that look balanced (2 war, 2 mes, 2 emo, 2 monk) fall into this style, and it's not something that I think takes much more skill than a pure caster or ranger spike. It's a bit tougher to run, but not much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Oh teh noes, I didn't bring a counter against a certain build, that means their win wasn't legitimate, or that it's worth less somehow! Anet should just tell me what guild I'm fighting and tell me their exact build so I can run counters to it, that way, it'll be TOTALLY fair.

I can't believe how stupid some of you "top ranked" GvG "balanced" players are.

This is pretty amusing because, ironically enough, in tournament play you do know exactly what guild you're fighting, and often have a pretty good idea what they will bring. Tournament play is the highest level of GW PvP, and one of the only levels that isn't dominated by gimmicks.

And yes, if you beat a team because you were randomly matched against them and your build countered theirs, your win is worth less. Most of the good spike builds require a lot of specific build counters - you need to bring Shields Up for ranger spike, Convert/Purge for SB/RI, mass interrupts for mixed caster or bloodspike, and on and on. If you don't fit one of those counters into your build, you have a much greater chance of taking the occasional loss to a spike team. However, you can't fit in all those counters and still have a decent build against the metagame. That's why the best teams tend to run a couple specific counters which also have use against good teams, and just accept that they'll take a loss to spike now and then. When you beat a good team like that, your build is beating their build, and player skill doesn't even enter into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Oh, and it's really boring to fight the same balanced team like 10x a night. 2 Warriors, 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 ranger, 2 monks. Maybe they'll switch out a mesmer for a poison/crip ranger and a melandrus ranger. Maybe the runner will be a me/a instead of an e/mo. Or screw one of the rangers or mesmers for a smiter. Fact is, there's VERY little variation in most "balanced" builds. Occasionally you'll see NR/Tranq (though I haven't seen one in quite some time), but most of the builds are 90% like each other. I'm going to list off some skills and you can tell me if 90% of balanced runs them or not.

This has nothing to do with spike, beyond the fact that spike has more skillslots to spare (since their entire offense consists of 6-8 skills) so they can afford to run a lot of subpar skills in the free slots. Lack of skill variety in this game is a problem, but spike certainly isn't a solution. Spike is a gimmick that exploits the randomness of the ladder to score some quick wins, not something that adds any particular variety to the game. This is demonstrated by the complete failure of spike in any kind of tournament play.

Patrograd · Oct 04, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Some guild know how to split, some don't.

Don't say it's the build winning. There's a reason when 2 ranger spikes fight each other, one wins and the other doesn't, someone got outplayed. Spikers use all 8 skills on their bar too, it's not just 3-2-1 press 2 skills.

What a brilliant rant. Delusional imo, but brilliant nonetheless.

I have played alot of spike in previous guilds. I was in a team the regularly held down a top 100 spot with ease running ranger spike. The reason we ran ranger spike is because we had two or three players who werent quite good enough, and when we ran balanced they were exposed and we lost. This is the main difference between spike and balanced builds that when you have played more you will appreciate. in fact, I'm pretty sure you appreciate it already deep down, I know I did back when I was running spike.

The main difference is that in a spike build, the skills you use and the time you use them and the target you use them on arent decisions that you as a player make. These are decisons made for you by the target caller. therefore, if you have a target caller who knows what he's doing, he can hide any deficiencies that may exist in the other 3 or 4 spike characters in a team. Your monks are rarely properly stretched because you are insta-killing enemy damage, and your flagger is rarely stretched because he should be getting a relatively free run if your caller is any good at all. The rank of a spike team is a reflection 90% or more of the rank of the caller. The other 7 do what they are told. if you have a top 20 caller then you are a top 20 side. if you changed the caller to a rank 1000 standard player, guess where you would be?

When you run a balanced build, suddenly all these decisions arent made for you, there is no-one holding your hand. Suddenly it is your call what skill you use, when and on what target. You need to be aware of what can hurt you and how you can help prevent that team wide, you need to be able to accurately predict what is comng up, when pressure is biting too hard, when you have to play defensively and when offensively. In other words, you have to be a good player to make it work. Running a balanced build makes you a better player, because it forces you into learning these things or lose.

All of which makes this gem of a rant:

Quote:

I've played balanced as a mesmer, thumper, necro, ele, monk. It's really no different. You have a job to do, and you do it. You use the skills when you're supposed to.

complete nonsense.

Quote:

C'mon, don't kid yourselves.

Seriously, and I mean this with no malice, and I advise you to take this from someone who has been there and done that - you should really apply this statement to yourself. if you really think that a rank 50 spike team is anywhere near as good, as individual players, as a rank 50 balanced team, then I'm afraid you are in for one hell of a shock. I am ten times the player now that i was playing as a spiker in a top 50 side. if you look at the rank of my guild that should tell you all you need to know

pigdestroyer · Oct 04, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

because some of those now top 50 guilds doing nothing else but bspike, were r700+ last season running balanced

clonmac · Oct 04, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

And yes, if you beat a team because you were randomly matched against them and your build countered theirs, your win is worth less. Most of the good spike builds require a lot of specific build counters - you need to bring Shields Up for ranger spike, Convert/Purge for SB/RI, mass interrupts for mixed caster or bloodspike, and on and on. If you don't fit one of those counters into your build, you have a much greater chance of taking the occasional loss to a spike team. However, you can't fit in all those counters and still have a decent build against the metagame. That's why the best teams tend to run a couple specific counters which also have use against good teams, and just accept that they'll take a loss to spike now and then. When you beat a good team like that, your build is beating their build, and player skill doesn't even enter into it.

This is well said and I agree with it. But, I don't think that saying this means that there is necessarily a problem with running spike builds. Coming from a MtG background, I know that the best possible chance you have to win is when you bring a balanced deck(build) to the match so that you are prepared for MOST types of game styles. With a balanced build, you have the best possible chance of winning when you are unsure of what the opponent will bring. This is the essence of what metagame is.

Let's go to the complete opposite side of the spectrum and say that everyone is running bloodspike and you know for sure that the team your are facing is running a bloodspike build. Knowing this, you don't need to bring the skills you would pack in a traditional balanced build. You can easily get away with bringing 1 monk with no hex removal and a bunch of interrupts on the rest of your party. Does this mean that bringing these counters to the match is cheap? No! You are simply playing the metagame.

It is the very fact that you don't know what your opponent will bring that forces you to throw another monk in there in case you meet up with a heavy pressure team or a team with knockdowns or blackouts. Or it forces you to put several hex removals in incase you come across a hex heavy build, etc. This is the nature of Guild Wars!

This is a good read on what Metagame really is and I found it interesting.

All spike builds are doing is taking advantage of the fact that teams need to play balanced if they want to be able to counter the majority of builds out there. In the same way that heavy hex builds take advantage of teams only having 3 or 4 hex removals in their build. Unfortunately, for better or for worse, this is how the ladder works. The fact that you don't know who you are going to play next makes it so that you need to play balanced most of the time. And unfortunately there are teams who take advantage of that. However, unlike in MtG, there are always other ways you can counter build types will still within the constraints of the particular build you are using. This is what makes GW so great.

However, claiming that teams that run spike aren't as good as teams that run balanced is far fetched. Frankly, there is really never a way to say that with any sort of accuracy. Especially when it comes down to individuals. There can be a really strong GW player who is currently playing in a guild that runs spike. But, the fact they are running spike shouldn't be the determining factor on their overall skill level, and particularly for that individual. This may be running off-topic though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

This is demonstrated by the complete failure of spike in any kind of tournament play.

Well truthfully there really haven't been many attempts to run spike in tournament play. All I can recall is Te running fast cast air spike with no enchantment removal. Other than that there haven't really been any attempts to run spike, and for good reason. In a tournament you don't really want to take the risk of limiting your mobility to such great extent. So it is best to play it safe it go with a balance and then try and incorporate your own unique twists that can help tip the balance in your favor.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

This is well said and I agree with it. But, I don't think that saying this means that there is necessarily a problem with running spike builds. Coming from a MtG background, I know that the best possible chance you have to win is when you bring a balanced deck(build) to the match so that you are prepared for MOST types of game styles. With a balanced build, you have the best possible chance of winning when you are unsure of what the opponent will bring. This is the essence of what metagame is.

I don't have a problem with the players who run spike, particularly. They're free to run whatever they want and whatever will get them wins. My problem is more with the setup of the ladder and GvG, such that it allows gimmicks like spike to take playoff spots from good teams.

I have nothing personally against the members of Es, TARD, or any other spike builds. If I rant about spike, I'm really ranting about the structure of the GvG ladder, not the individual players that run spike. Individual players can and should do what it takes to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmac

However, claiming that teams that don't run spike aren't as good as teams that run balanced is far fetched. Frankly, there is really never a way to say that with any sort of accuracy. Especially when it comes down to individuals. There can be a really strong GW player who is currently playing in a guild that runs spike. But, the fact they are running spike should be the determining factor on their overall skill level. This may be running off-topic though.

You can judge the skill of individual players when you play against them. I've played against most of the top spike guilds, and I've seen their players put in situations where they have to make individual decisions without a countdown from a caller. Almost without exception, they are absolutely horrible.

I don't deny that some of these spike guilds have at least a few decent players in them. However, the team as a whole is winning through their build, not through their skill as players. Put those same players onto a non-spike build and they will get crushed, time and time again.

If you define skill as 'being able to win', then spike demonstrates a great deal of skill on the ladder, and none at all in tournament play. The problem though is that almost any player has the skills required to play in a spike team. The real challenge is finding a decent caller and keeping activity up. I've played rank 20 spike teams and rank 200 spike teams and the matches play out pretty much the same, with both sides making the same moves. In contrast, a rank 20 balanced team is a much more stressful and difficult match than a rank 200 running the same build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clonmac

Well truthfully there really haven't been many attempts to run spike in tournament play. All I can recall is Te running fast cast air spike with no enchantment removal. Other than that there haven't really been any attempts to run spike, and for good reason. In a tournament you don't really want to take the risk of limiting your mobility to such great extent. So it is best to play it safe it go with a balance and then try and incorporate your own unique twists that can help tip the balance in your favor.

-Rifts ran FC Air Spike in a number of tournaments, and always lost in the first or second round due to people metagaming against them.

-iQ (I think) ran rangerspike in the GWFC finals against EviL. They were flattened.

-Te ran FC Air spike in the GWWC, as you mention.

-EP's barrier spike in the GWWC playoffs getting rocked by iQ, who specced against it. In the previous match, EP beat Patient Relaxed People's ranger spike using a dedicated split build.

I can only think of two real successful spikes in tournament play. One was EW's FoC spike on Imperial Isle, which was so ridiculously imba that even a dedicated counter build couldn't beat it. The other was RUS defeating Te in the second season of GWFC, which had more to do with Te not changing their build at all to counter air spike and relying purely on player skill.

In almost every ladder, there have been guilds that got a good position exclusively through spike, or some other gimmick. None of these guilds has come anywhere close to winning. I don't think a guild has ever gotten past the second round running pure spike.

Basically, running any one gimmick sucks in tournament play, and spike is one of the easiest to spec against.

Neo-LD · Oct 04, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I miss the good old days (~pre-factions, basically), where just about every attempt to criticize the methods or builds used to achieve victory was shunned and looked down upon. Some of the very same people that now hate gimmicks so fiercely once proudly sported the "play to win" dogma. Back then, it was so simple: anyone complaining about unfair or unpopular builds was just a scrub in need of a reality check. Such a black-and-white policy was quite a bit easier than all this tedious philosophical struggle.

Then again, an indecriminant policy as harsh as that is a gross oversimplification of what players are really complaining about. Here is how I view the whole ordeal:

Players and guilds can and should do whatever than need to do to win. Part of this is taking the metagame into account. If the metagame is hex-friendly, run hexes. If its removal-light, run smite. If its almost completely devoid of appreciable caster hate, like it has been for several months now, then by all means run spike if thats what floats your boat. This has been said, but running spike is a form of playing for the metagame.

However, the other part of doing what you need to do to win is being realistic about what your players can run. If your players are subpar, and you really want the highest rank possible, then spike is your best option. This is because of several reasons, already stated excellently in this thread, but I will summarize:

1) In a spike, the only player making skill-requiring decisions is the caller. Everyone else just presses the buttons when they are told to. In any other kind of build, no one is there to hold those players hands anymore, and their general ineptitude is revealed.

2) In spike, you are not outplaying them. Your build is beating their build. They either have tools to beat you or they dont. As long as you dont make several ridiculous mistakes, you have the game in the bag as soon as the gates open, assuming the right map.

So back to my main point. Players should run whatever they need to, in order to reach the highest rank possible. For bad players, that means spike. When people complain about a gimmick, imo they arent complaining that they have lost in general, they are really complaining about the depressing fact that they just lost to a bunch of idiots.

So run spike to your hearts content. Youll get a good rank on the ladder and might just a silver cape. I dont complain a bit - Just so long as I know that you know that we know just how bad you really are.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 04, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Or, the bad players could just play balanced and try to improve as players altogether?

Lews · Oct 04, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Most spike builds cant split for anything. We have beaten a few different spike builds, just by splitting. and even if they can split, they do shit for damage. The only spike build ive seen have success splitting is sb/ri. i have never seen a ranger, blood, or obs flame spike split successfully.

So have you played at all lately? Or are these spike guilds all rank 700?

People split on us every time, we still win.

moriz · Oct 04, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flowah

Some guild know how to split, some don't.

Don't say it's the build winning. There's a reason when 2 ranger spikes fight each other, one wins and the other doesn't, someone got outplayed. Spikers use all 8 skills on their bar too, it's not just 3-2-1 press 2 skills. I've played balanced as a mesmer, thumper, necro, ele, monk. It's really no different. You have a job to do, and you do it. You use the skills when you're supposed to. What's the difference? I think warrior adren spikes are gimmicky. I mean holy crap, the hammer and evis/exec does soooooo much damage, and sometimes the mesmer even eburns or shatters your prot spirit! SPIKING IS FOR NOOOOBS.

Oh teh noes, I didn't bring a counter against a certain build, that means their win wasn't legitimate, or that it's worth less somehow! Anet should just tell me what guild I'm fighting and tell me their exact build so I can run counters to it, that way, it'll be TOTALLY fair.

I can't believe how stupid some of you "top ranked" GvG "balanced" players are.

Oh, and it's really boring to fight the same balanced team like 10x a night. 2 Warriors, 2 mesmers, 1 ele, 1 ranger, 2 monks. Maybe they'll switch out a mesmer for a poison/crip ranger and a melandrus ranger. Maybe the runner will be a me/a instead of an e/mo. Or screw one of the rangers or mesmers for a smiter. Fact is, there's VERY little variation in most "balanced" builds. Occasionally you'll see NR/Tranq (though I haven't seen one in quite some time), but most of the builds are 90% like each other. I'm going to list off some skills and you can tell me if 90% of balanced runs them or not.

blessed light signet of devotion reversal of fortune gift of health prot spirit inspired hex divine boon eviserate executioners bullstrike sprint healing signet frenzy devastating hammer crushing blow fierce blow ressig shields up blinding flash ether prodigy heal party extinguish lightning orb lightning strike esurge eburn shatter enchant diversion blackout distortion ressurection chant apply poison cripshot debilshot dshot savage shot shock

The mere fact that I can tab through the players, see their classes and guess 7/8 skills on their bar shows how little diversity there IS in GvG. The fact that you can give a name to any build you see in GvG. Hex Spam, Nr/tranq, smite, rspike, obsspike, bspike, domspike, fastcast air, shows you that there's nothing to brag about in terms of GvG creativity. Oh suuure, shadow of haste got a huge buff and now some guilds run that on their flagger, omg, so original, change the meta, blah blah blah.

Ever notice people don't ever make up individual builds? They just say, "alright, lets run a hammer war, a shock war, a dom mes, blight, boon, e/mo air flagger, gank assassin" etc. That's because there's no actual skill difference in these sets, 99% of the time, they run the exact same 8 skills. You think you're being original by subbing out a mesmer for a degen ranger? Well fine, you're an original little child.

C'mon, don't kid yourselves.

creativity occurs not in how each character is built. it is found in the players themselves. there are currently not much variation in individual character builds because much of the potential in every skill have already been realized. what we have now is not how creative you are with your build, but how creative you are in using it.

take for example, WM and some random guild, both playing the exact same build. WM will play the build far more creatively than the random guild, resulting in faster and more frequent victories.

remember: gvg is how you play, not what you play.

Flowah · Oct 05, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

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This is pretty amusing because, ironically enough, in tournament play you do know exactly what guild you're fighting, and often have a pretty good idea what they will bring. Tournament play is the highest level of GW PvP, and one of the only levels that isn't dominated by gimmicks.

Uh... that's why guilds will prepare several builds to run in tourney, so the other team can't design a build around them. Duh?

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Your monks are rarely properly stretched because you are insta-killing enemy damage, and your flagger is rarely stretched because he should be getting a relatively free run if your caller is any good at all. The rank of a spike team is a reflection 90% or more of the rank of the caller. The other 7 do what they are told. if you have a top 20 caller then you are a top 20 side. if you changed the caller to a rank 1000 standard player, guess where you would be?

Nice try. For one, monks aren't exactly told how to play by the caller. The monks don't change from a spike team or a balanced team, they play the red bar game, regardless of what the caller says. Spikes don't always go through, you miss a few spikes, and you'll see just how much pressure there is on the monks (just as much as it would be against any other team). Flag running isn't the piece of cake you make it out to be. The other team DOES split, if they split 4 inside your base, solo running a flag isn't "lol piece of cake because everyone is dead because the caller has a 'kill the entire other team' button that can teleport across between the splits and kill everyone". Duh. The team will deal with the split.

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The other 7 do what they are told. if you have a top 20 caller then you are a top 20 side. if you changed the caller to a rank 1000 standard player, guess where you would be?

Change the other 7 players to standard rank1000 players. Guess what happens? Wow, amazing.

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When you run a balanced build, suddenly all these decisions arent made for you, there is no-one holding your hand.

The caller in our spikes does about as much hand holding as the caller in an adren/dom spike. The other 6 skills I use on my own.

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Suddenly it is your call what skill you use, when and on what target.

Like... surge/burn monks? Save shatter enchant for a spike? Drain a protted target? Blackout a frenzied warrior? Distortion when you see incoming? Hardres when someone dies? Zomg, so incredibly difficult. I'm not sure if I can manage this. It's all so much to think about. Oh man, and on a warrior, first I have to build adrenaline, then switch targets a few times to make them burn through a little protting/energy, and then call a target for a nice little adren spike. Holy crap. This is WAY too much thinking.

I'm not saying balanced is easy. But you make it sound like it's on this whole other level. It's really not. There are crappy spike teams, and crappy balanced teams, there are good balanced and good spike teams. Why isn't every spike guild in the top20? You sure seem to think it's pretty damn easy.

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complete nonsense.

Ok, use the skills when you're not supposed to. Better?

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Seriously, and I mean this with no malice, and I advise you to take this from someone who has been there and done that - you should really apply this statement to yourself. if you really think that a rank 50 spike team is anywhere near as good, as individual players, as a rank 50 balanced team, then I'm afraid you are in for one hell of a shock. I am ten times the player now that i was playing as a spiker in a top 50 side. if you look at the rank of my guild that should tell you all you need to know

Seriousl,y and I mean this with no malice, I advise you to take this from someone who has been there and dont that - you should really apply this statement to only yourself. If you really think that a rank50 balanced team is 10x better than a rank50 spike team, you're in for one hell of a shock. You are .1 the player now that you were playing as a spiker in the top50 side. If I look at the rank of your guild, I laugh.

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This is demonstrated by the complete failure of spike in any kind of tournament play.

zomg FoC.

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1) In a spike, the only player making skill-requiring decisions is the caller. Everyone else just presses the buttons when they are told to.

Hell yeah. My caller can say 100 words a second. He tells every single other player what to press, who to press it on, and how to press it. Players 2/3/4 press 1 then 2 on this target. Monks 6/7 heal up 3/4, flag runner, run right, b flash that cripshot, heal breeze yourself, give us some heal parties, put up ether prodigy, reblind that crip shot, tell the monks you're coming in to cap the flag. Monks when he tells you hes capping, prot him up. Before you run out, give us some more heal parties. Oh yeah, players 2/3/4 spike this target, press 1-2 now. Monks why aren't you pressing heal other and reversal of fortune on #4? WOW, #3-8-5 USE THE RESSURECTION SIGNET SKILL ON #4. CMON.

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2) In spike, you are not outplaying them. Your build is beating their build. They either have tools to beat you or they dont. As long as you dont make several ridiculous mistakes, you have the game in the bag as soon as the gates open, assuming the right map.

So when two ranger spikes fight, I guess they both win. Their builds won it for them. Wow, maybe everyone should just rangerspike. You're garuanteed a win. Easiest way to get rank1 and win in tourney imo.

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So back to my main point. Players should run whatever they need to, in order to reach the highest rank possible. For bad players, that means spike.

Well, I mean if bad players do soooo well with it, if good players ran it, they'd absolutely OWN. If the main point is to get the highest rank possible, why aren't all the great players running spike? Maybe... they just don't want to? I'm sorry not everyone runs balanced and is an easy roll for you. (Except, your record is pretty dismal...)

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take for example, WM and some random guild, both playing the exact same build. WM will play the build far more creatively than the random guild, resulting in faster and more frequent victories.

Does that mean, since I've beaten other guilds running nearly identical builds to the one I play in, that we were more creative?

Has anyone LOOKED at the top100 ladder recently? There are some CRAPPY teams on there. They don't even all get there with spike. top100 really doesn't mean a whole lot if you have 7 decent people with vent and a mic. Hell, just farm during Euro hours, sure you'll rating up +4/5 at a time, but hey, with a little grind, you'll get there.

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I've played rank 20 spike teams and rank 200 spike teams and the matches play out pretty much the same, with both sides making the same moves.

Doubt it. Some spike guilds are just better. Admit it.

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because some of those now top 50 guilds doing nothing else but bspike, were r700+ last season running balanced

Name me 5 guilds that were rank700+ last season after gvging seriously with balanced, and are now top50. Try to name some that have a little name recognition. Of course, if you can't that's fine. I suppose I'll have to take your word for it that they were rank700+ last season, even though you'd never have seen them on TV to know. (I guess you just stalk every guild on ladder to see them move up right?)

yesitsrob · Oct 05, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

the thing with bloodspike is, if you aren't equipped to deal with them, lacking infuse for example they can just camp till VoD.. the spike is just very powerful if the vamp gaze goes through as well. And beating them at VoD is pretty difficult too imo.

Just tell them to f off to HA. Ok don't.... I wish they would though. Losing to talentless scrubs like for example, Kryta Fried Chicken, sucks.

Neo-LD · Oct 05, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

You are so far off the mark its sickening. Stop posting before you hurt yourself.

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Originally Posted by Flowah

Nice try. For one, monks aren't exactly told how to play by the caller. The monks don't change from a spike team or a balanced team, they play the red bar game, regardless of what the caller says. Spikes don't always go through, you miss a few spikes, and you'll see just how much pressure there is on the monks (just as much as it would be against any other team).

If a spike is scoring kills consistently, its monks get almost no work because the other team cannot sustain any offense. Also, a typical spike build is packed to the eyes with defense (chained aegis, multiple heal party, wards, blinds, etc) So the spike's monks have plenty of help.

AND YET. Almost 100% of the time if I see a spike get into a prolonged fight against a balanced team that it just cant seem to spike out consistently, its monks falter. Even with that much help, they cant hold the team up if there isnt a kill every ~1-2 minutes, max. Conclusion: in general, a spike team's monks are significantly worse than monks that play in balanced teams. They are just rarely tested because the spike makes their skill level irrelevent in most games.

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Change the other 7 players to standard rank1000 players. Guess what happens?

Precisely my point. The answer: nothing really.

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Like... surge/burn monks? Save shatter enchant for a spike? Drain a protted target? Blackout a frenzied warrior? Distortion when you see incoming? Hardres when someone dies? Zomg, so incredibly difficult. I'm not sure if I can manage this. It's all so much to think about. Oh man, and on a warrior, first I have to build adrenaline, then switch targets a few times to make them burn through a little protting/energy, and then call a target for a nice little adren spike. Holy crap. This is WAY too much thinking.

You seem to have written a neat paragraph covering an incredibly small percentage of tactics necessary for successful balanced play. And yet, you still have managed to use more e-ink than is required to summarize the tactics used by spike: "3, 2, 1"

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Seriousl,y and I mean this with no malice, I advise you to take this from someone who has been there and dont that - you should really apply this statement to only yourself. If you really think that a rank50 balanced team is 10x better than a rank50 spike team, you're in for one hell of a shock. You are .1 the player now that you were playing as a spiker in the top50 side. If I look at the rank of your guild, I laugh.

Again, missing the point entirely (and bordering on simple beligerence merely for the sake of insult) but anyways: Rank 50 balanced teams ARE made up of far better Guild Wars players than rank 50 spike teams. The point of 'looking at his guild's rank' was that you would see how far below his old spike guild's rank it was, AND YET he is 10x better. The gap between skill levels is clearly greater than you can grasp.

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Hell yeah. My caller can say 100 words a second. He tells every single other player what to press, who to press it on, and how to press it. Players 2/3/4 press 1 then 2 on this target. Monks 6/7 heal up 3/4, flag runner, run right, b flash that cripshot, heal breeze yourself, give us some heal parties, put up ether prodigy, reblind that crip shot, tell the monks you're coming in to cap the flag. Monks when he tells you hes capping, prot him up. Before you run out, give us some more heal parties. Oh yeah, players 2/3/4 spike this target, press 1-2 now. Monks why aren't you pressing heal other and reversal of fortune on #4? WOW, #3-8-5 USE THE RESSURECTION SIGNET SKILL ON #4. CMON.

While I congratulate you for successful exageration, the sad part is that this is not THAT far from what actually happens.

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So when two ranger spikes fight, I guess they both win. Their builds won it for them. Wow, maybe everyone should just rangerspike. You're garuanteed a win. Easiest way to get rank1 and win in tourney imo.

Note that I stipulated, "assuming the right map" (read, "burning isle"), and that "they dont have the correct answers in their build." Read -> Think -> Post, pls.

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Well, I mean if bad players do soooo well with it, if good players ran it, they'd absolutely OWN. If the main point is to get the highest rank possible, why aren't all the great players running spike? Maybe... they just don't want to? I'm sorry not everyone runs balanced and is an easy roll for you. (Except, your record is pretty dismal...)

This is EXACTLY what I have been striking at. If you give the same exact build to a group of top players, they WONT be much better with it, if any. Like I said, the build is winning, not the players. Spike allows bad players to play AS IF they were good ones (which is fine, as long as everyone knows and acknowledges that they are bad players, just with a good rank). Good players can run balanced and reach levels at or far surpassing anything spike can achieve (read, "win tournaments")

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Doubt it. Some spike guilds are just better. Admit it.

In spike vs spike, there are really only 4 people playing: the two callers, and the two infusers. At that point it becomes a contest to see which guild has better players in those positions. Some spike guilds are better than others is more accurately said, "some spikes suck less than others."